♪ amy: from pacifica this is democracy now! >> donald is great at one minors but he is a chaos candidate and he would be a chaos president. he would not be the commander-in-chief we need to keep our country safe. >> mr. trump. [cheers and applause] believe i amot

unhinged. he said that because he has failed in the campaign. it has been a total disaster. amy: donald trump and jeb bush spar in the first republican debate since trump shook up the race by proposing to ban muslims from entering the united states. senators ted cruz and marco rubio went at it over immigration and domestic surveillance. trump calls for closing the internet. many republican contenders also called for expanding the wars in the middle east and enlarging the u.s. military. and returning to the policies of george w. bush. >> george w. bush made mistakes but he did adjust. i blame obama for isil, not bush. i miss george w. bush, i wish you were president. we would not be in this mess. amy: the debates were held at sheldon adelson's casino in las vegas.

we will get response from bob hebert of demos, zed jilani of the intercept, professor steven zunes and arun kundnani, author of "the muslims are coming: islamophobia, extremism, and the domestic war on terror." all that and more, coming up. ♪ welcome to democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the nine leading republican presidential candidates squared off last night in las vegas at the venetian casino, owned by republican billionaire backer sheldon adelson. it was the first debate since donald trump shook up the race by proposing to ban muslims from entering the united states. trump has gained an all-time high in a recent national poll. as he criticized the obama administration's wars in the middle east tuesday night, trump was interrupted by protester kai newkirk, who decried billionaire politicians. >> in my opinion --

[indiscernible] trillione spent $4 dollars trying to topple various people that frankly, if they were there and we could have spent that $4 trillion in the u.s. to fix roads, bridges and other problems, airports and other problems we have, we would have been a lot better off. governor jeblorida bush, who has been trailing in the polls, took aim at trump's proposals, including his proposal to ban muslim immigrants. >> this is not a serious proposal and it will push the arab world away from us at a time when we need to reengage with them to create a strategy to destroy isis. donald is great at one liners but he's a chaos candidate and he would be a chaos president. he would not be the commander-in-chief we need. amy: much of the debate focused

on national security, with candidates pushing for increasing the size of the u.s. military, escalating the wars in the middle east and empowering the power of the national security agency. we will talk more about last night's debate after headlines. secretary of state john kerry said the united states is not seeking the ouster of syrian president bashar al-assad. speaking in moscow following talks with russian leaders, kerry backed the russian demand that it be left up to the syrian people to determine if assad remains in power. >> the united states and our partners are not seeking so-called regime change as it is known in syria. what we have said is that we do not believe that assad himself has the ability to be able to lead the future syria. we focus today not on our orferences about what can cannot be done immediately about

assad, we focus on the process. amy: defense secretary ash carter is in iraq for talks with iraqi leaders on the us-led campaign against the self-proclaimed islamic state. his trip comes amidst revelations the united states has overlooked killings and torture by shiite militias sponsored by the iraqi government. reuters reports both the iraqi government and the us military carried out investigations following the discovery in 2005 of a secret baghdad prison run by a shiite militia where 168 prisoners were found in horrific conditions. neither report was ever published. the u.s. report obtained by reuters found evidence of extra-judicial killings and torture, and implicated top iraqi officials who remain in positions of power. los angeles schools have reopened today after the country's second-largest school system was shuttered tuesday following a violent threat. while new york city received a nearly identifical threat, authorities here declared it a hoax, while los angeles officials kept the district's 640,000 students at home.

the emailed threats mentioned guns, explosives and nerve gas and were routed through a server in germany. los angeles mayor eric garcetti confirmed tuesday it was not a credible threat. >> we can announce that the fbi has determined this is not a , something -- not a credible threat. some have used words like h oax. mischieft is criminal are testing vulnerability, we do not know enough to say definitively. we know it will be safe for our children to return to school tomorrow. amy: greek lawmakers have approved a new reform measure demanded by international lenders in exchange for the next batch of bailout funds. outside the parliament, hundreds rallied against austerity measures and vowed to continue fighting the bailout terms accepted by greek prime minister alexis tsipras. communist party leader dimitris koutsoubas was among those to protest.

>> this bill of prior actions that has been fast tracked in parliament but also the austerity measures coming soon shows there's only one root for the workers' movement. a long battle to fight against the system, against these measures that are bad for the people. amy: in baltimore, maryland, the jury in the case of william porter, the first of six officers to face trial over the death of freddie gray, has deadlocked. after deliberating for 10 hours, jurors told the judge tuesday they had failed to reach a unanimous decision, but they are set to continue deliberations today after the judge told they to keep going. porter, one of three african-american officers charged in the case, is accused of failing to summon medical help when freddie gray requested it and failing to secure gray's seatbealt. porter faces up to 10 years in prison. freddie gray's family attorney has said his spine was 80% severed at the neck when he died in police custody, sparking an uprising in baltimore over police treatment of african americans.

israeli forces have shot dead two palestinians during a raid on the qalandia refugee camp in the occupied west bank. israeli authorities said the two young men attempted to ram vehicles into israeli forces. since the beginning of october, israeli forces have killed about 120 palestinians. around 20 israelis and one u.s. citizen have been killed over the same time period in palestinian attacks. house speaker paul ryan has announced a deal on a $1.1 trillion spending bill and a package of massive tax breaks democrats say will unfairly benefit corporations. the deal would lift the 40-year ban on crude oil exports from the united states, extend tax breaks for wind and solar energy and delay portions of obama's signature healthcare law. privacy advocates have objected to the inclusion of a controversial cybersecurity bill they say will quietly expand mass surveillance by allowing corporations to share sensitive user data with law enforcement

agencies. the house is expected to hold separate votes on the tax and spending portions of the deal by the end of the week. a new report shows executions in the united states have dropped to their lowest level in nearly 25 years. of the 28 executions carried out in 2015, 13 took place in texas, 6 in missouri and five in georgia. a total of 49 new death sentences were imposed this year, the lowest number since the early 1970's when the supreme court blocked executions. the report comes amid declining public support for the death penalty, halts on executions in a number of states and a shortage of execution drugs following objections from european pharmaceutical companies. the mayor of flint, michigan has declared a state of emergency over lead in the city's drinking water. last year, the city switched its water source from the detroit system to the flint river. despite switching back in october, mayor karen weaver said lead levels remain higher than the federal threshold in many

homes. a study released in september found the proportion of children under five with elevated lead levels in their blood nearly doubled following the switch. weaver, who just became flint's first woman mayor, made the announcement monday night. a south carolina state lawmaker has pre-filed a bill restricting access to viagra and other erectile dysfunction medications for men in order to make a point about increasing restrictions on women's reproductive rights. the bill requires men seeking viagra to undergo a 24-hour waiting period, submit a notarized affidavit from a sexual partner, be examined by a state-licensed sexual therapist and attend outpatient counseling sessions. south carolina state representative mia mccleod said she made the bill as complex as possible in order to prove a point about restrictions on abortion. make itposely tried to as invasive, intrusive,

hypocritical and unnecessary as possible to make a point. amy: similar attempts to restrict viagra access in ohio and other states have so far been unsuccessful. and a group of united nations experts has concluded the united states has failed to uphold gender equality. following a visit to the united states, the three human rights experts from poland, the united kingdom and costa rica said they were "appalled by the over-incarceration of women, mostly for nonviolent crimes." they criticized the quote "deeply disturbing" condition of migrant women in detention centers, and said they were shocked by the lack of accommodation for pregnant women in the workplace. according to "the huffington post," the women told reporters the most telling moment of the trip was their visit to an abortion clinic in alabama, where they faced harassment from anti-choice protesters. quote, "it was a kind of terrorism," the delegate from poland said. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report.

i'm amy goodman. juan: i am juan gonzalez. welcome to our viewers and listeners. before we get to the debate, talk about what happened in congress yesterday. juan: i had a column in today's "daily news" about a deal reached on spending by congress. it did not include an extension of bankruptcy protection laws to puerto rico. the island as suffering under a $72 billion deficit and is debt paymentillion due in two weeks on january 1. the governor of puerto rico, the white house and leaders of congress were trying to get congress to agree to extend bankruptcy protection to allow restructuring of the debt. there were meetings late monday night and into yesterday afternoon between three leading ,epublicans, chuck grassley

orrin hatch and lisa murkowski, all heads of committees who deal with puerto rico and one way or another. and also chuck schumer and maria cantwell. it broke down around noon yesterday. grassley was insisting he did not want to extend bankruptcy protections to puerto rico. the result is there is going to be a default in two weeks. is government of puerto rico going to roil the bond market of the u.s.. the only weapon the governor has left and say i'm not going to pay the debt and let wall street deal with the consequences. amy: i encourage people to see your speech that we played on thanksgiving. you can go to democracynow.org on puerto rico's debt crisis. we will continue to follow this. juan: the nine leading republican presidential candidates squared off last night in las vegas at the

venetian casino, owned by republican billionaire backer sheldon adelson. sheldon adelson and donald trump held a private meeting before the event. it was the first debate since trump shook up the race by proposing to ban muslims from entering the united states. amy: much of the debate focused on national security with , candidates pushing for increasing the size of the u.s. military, escalating the wars in the middle east and expanding the power of the national security agency. prior to the primetime event, four other republicans took part in the so-called undercard debate. senator lindsey graham said he wished president george w. bush was back in the white house. >> george w. bush made mistakes, but he did adjust. i blame obama for isil, not bush. i am tired of beating on bush. i miss george w. bush. i wish he were president right now, we would not be in this mess. amy: during the primetime

debate, some of the tensest moments occurred in exchanges between another bush, george w. bush's brother jeb, and donald trump. the debate opened when cnn's wolf blitzer asking trump about his proposal to ban muslims. >> as you mentioned in your opening statement, part of your strategy is to focus on america's borders. you say you want to temporarily and non-american muslims from coming to the united states. ban refugees fleeing isis from coming here. deport 11 million people and wall off america's southern border. is the best way to make america great again to isolate it from much of the rest of the world? >> we are not talking about isolation. we are talking about security. we are not talking about religion. we are talking about security. our country is out of control. people are pouring across the southern border. i will build a wall. it will be a great while.

people will not come in ms they come in legally. other people like migration, tens of thousands of people having cell phones with isis flags on them, i do not think so. they are not coming to this country. if i'm president and if obama has brought some to this country, they are leaving, they are going, they are gone. [applause] >> governor bush, you called mr. when henhinged" proposed banning non-american muslims from the u.s. why? >> we need to destroy isis in th caliphate. the refugee issue will be solved if we destroy isis there. we need a no-fly zone, safe zones and to build a military force. we need to embed our troops in the iraqi military. we need to arm the kurds.

that has to be done in concert with arab nations. if we are going to ban muslims, how are they going to get them to be part of a coalition to destroy isis? our strongest allies, they are muslims. this is not a serious proposal. it will push the arab world away from us at a time when we need to reengage with them to create a strategy to destroy isis. donald is great at the one liners but he's a chaos candidate. he's be a chaos president. we would not be the commander in chief to keep our country safe. [applause] >> mr. trump? jeb does not really believe i'm unhinged. he said that because he has failed in this campaign. it has been a disaster. nobody cares and frankly i am the most solvent person appear. i built a tremendous company.

all i want to do is make american great again. i do not want our country to be taken away from us and that is what is happening. the policies we've suffered under other presidents have been a disaster for our country. we want to make america great again. jeb, he does not believe that. banningis the problem, all muslims will make it harder for us to do what we need to do, to destroy isis> we need to get the lawyers off the back of the war fighters. obama we president have created this standard that is so high that it is impossible to be successful fighting isis. we need to engage with the arab world to make this happen. it is not a serious proposal to say to the people you are asking for their support that they cannot even come to the country to engage in a dialogue with us. that is not a serious proposal. we need a serious leader and i believe i'm that guy. kundani,ing us is arun

author of "the muslims are coming: islamophobia, extremism, and the domestic war on terror." adjunct professor at new york university. this was the first debate since donald trump called for a ban on muslims coming into the u.s.. can you talk about the back and forth and the response of republicans around this issue? arun: in my summary, should we be committing war crimes in the middle east by carpet bombing civilians or should we have dictators bombing civilians. muslims that and ban from coming to the u.s., how do we have the dictators come here? let's let in some muslims but take away their rights. this is the feel of last night's debate. it is unprecedented to have this level of hateful rhetoric. s.rected against muslim

we are back to the full-blown .ar on terror at least after 9/11 we were responding to what was an exceptional event. san bernardinout is it is a normal event in america. amy: can you explain what you mean? arun: if we want to see san bernardino as exceptional, then we're basically saying we care more about the 45 people in the u.s. who have been killed by muslim terrorists in 9/11 then the 48 killed by right-wing terrorists since 9/11 than the 400,000 killed by gun related crimes in the u.s. since 9/11. that is the number of a small country but we focus on the one issue of muslim terrorism.that is our only idea of violence that we think about. juan: did you see in any of the

9 candidates of their a -- up there, a more sane approach distinguish and one from another? arun: the variations between them are the different ways in which we might abuse people's rights and go to war. there no one his taking a principled stand. this is true not just of the republicans but across the political establishment. we have not seen anyone in mainstream politics say the objection to trump is straightforwardly because he's making racist statements and we know the history of this country and where that leads. what people have been saying is pragmatic arguments. we should not say this stuff out loud because otherwise people in the middle east might turn into terrorists and bomb us, which feeds his narrative that muslims are scary people on the verge of becoming terrorists. amy: wolf blitzer asked dr. ben carson about his proposal to

monitor "anti-america" sentiment. >> as far as monitoring is what my point is, we need to make sure that any place, i don't care whether it is a mosque, a school, supermarket, a theater, if there are a lot of people getting there and engaging in radicalizing activities, we need to be suspicious of it. we need to get rid of all this pc stuff. this is craziness. we are at war. that is why i asked congress, declared war. amy: arun kundnani, dr. carson's comments? arun: what carson, cruz and trump are doing is making explicit what is implicit in policy terms. every mosque in new york city is

under surveillance for being a mosque. we already deported thousands of people from the u.s. simply because they are muslim. we already have over one million people on terrorism watch lists. actually,ements are what they are doing is putting out in the open stuff that i think people who see themselves as more mainstream would rather keep quiet. the objection to people like hillary clinton, to what trump and cruz and carson are saying, of course we have a muslim problem but let's do this more quality -- more quietly. amy: we will come back to our discussion. arun kundnani is the author of "the muslims are coming: islamophobia, extremism, and the domestic war on terror." he's an adjunct professor at nyu. we will be joined by others in our roundtable discussion as we bring you clips from the republican presidential debate.

sheldon adelson's casino in las vegas. [music break]

amy: "stuck in the middle" here on democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. ed kilgore in "new york the republican presidential contest was dramatic fiction rather than a reality show, tonight's debate would end with the proprietor coming on stage to

name is victor who would be aborted with a personal endorsement and a super pac endorsement. ay mess with snap polls when realplayer can put his money where his mouth is?" we will bring bob herbert, a distinguished senior fellow with demos. from 1993 to 2011, he was an from 1993 to 2011, he was an op-ed columnist for the "new york times." zed jilani, as staff reporter at the intercept. his new piece is called "ted cruz under attack in iowa for bucking ethanol lobby." still with us is arun kundnani, author of "the muslims are coming: islamophobia, extremism, and the domestic war on terror." adjunct professor at new york university. bob herbert, sheldon adelson's casino with a private meeting before the billionaires. that was donald trump and sheldon adelson. bob: we are democracy be

dismantled before our eyes. this was the sheldon adelson-cnn debate. debate.ot just a cnn you have a leading republican candidate, a billionaire. all the republican candidates are willing to genuflect before sheldon adelson. someone in the press, in the media, in the public needs to wake up to this. we are debating how we can erode our democracy further and give up civil liberties and civil rights. how we can prevent people on the basis of their religion from entering the country and certainly from participating in our daily lives. know we are not talking about the economy that we have seen what has happened the economy has been hijacked to be in the services of the very wealthy.

i think it is potentially catastrophic. we are losing the united states as we had come to know it or as we were taught growing up in civics lessons and history books were the things that made the u.s. special. juan: i wanted to ask about the role of the media and specifically in this case cnn in framing the discussion. i was stunned that over an hour was spent discussing isis. it was almost as if cnn decided that fear and the fight against terrorism was now the main discussion that had to occur. in discussing foreign policy, there was no mention of israel-palestine. no discussion of latin america or president obama's decision to normalize relations with cuba. even scant discussion of the situation with russia and ukraine. it was focused on the middle east and on isis> bob: it was about isis and terror and fear. the subtext, it is right out

there, fear of muslims. i thought it was crazy. not only was almost the entire debate focused on isis, i thought they did not even do a good job of interviewing the candidates about isis. you did not have follow-up questions. the whole thing was incoherent. you did not have follow-up questions to pin these fellows down. you had candidates saying i am going to destroy isis. americans are not going to have to be afraid. how are you going to do that? are you going to wage a serious war against isis? are you going to build up the american military and invade the middle east? how are we going to pay for it? are we going to have tax cuts at the same time we are conducting a war like we did last time with disastrous results. we did not get any kind of follow-up questions last night from these interviewers. then one thing that was

astounding to me, trump is the leading gop contender at this point. he does not even know what the nuclear triad is. this is the guide that is going to be our commander in chief. when he flubbed that question and made it clear he did not know what the question was talking about, was there some kind of follow up to spotlight for the american people? the fellow that claims to be the strongest on foreign policy and warfare and fighting terror does not understand what america's nuclear capabilities are? juan: ben carson was asked if he would be willing to wage war as the commander-in-chief. this cliff begins -- this clip begins with cnn moderator qqh ugh hewitt. >> dr. carson, you mentioned you neurologist,ic neurosurgeon. people admire and respect and

are inspired by your life story, your kindness and your evangelical support. we are talking about ruthless things tonight, carpet bombing, toughness and war. people wonder, could you order airstrikes that would kill innocent children by the hundreds and thousands? could you wage war as a commander-in-chief? >> interestingly enough, you should see the eyes of some of those children when i say to them we are going to have to open your head up and take out this tumor. they are not happy about it and they do not like me at that point. later on, they love me. i sound like him. [laughter] later on they really realize what is going on. by the same token, you have to be able to look at the big picture and understand that it is actually merciful if you go ahead and finish the job rather

than death by 1000 pericks. >> you are ok with the death of thousands of innocent children's and civilian? [crowd shouting] >> you've got it. >> can you be as ruthless as churchill was prosecuting the war against the nazis? >> worthless is not a word i would use but tough, resolute and understanding what the problems are. that is the job of the president of the united states, to protect the people of this country and do what is necessary. juan: that was ben carson speaking last night in the debate. ed jilani. zaid: they are talking about terrorism as if you approach it as if you're trying to attack an enemy where you defeat an army

and you raise a flag and it is done. what terrorism is about is the mentality of people, for example on the republican stage, who are antagonizing muslims and saying of war in12-13 years the middle east, let's have some more and maybe it will work this time. administration has launched 6000 airstrikes and was in one dozen countries are involved in syria and iraq. notary solution -- military force is not the only solution. appealing tore voters, 60% of whom want to ban muslims. saying the more we harm, the more strength we use, the stronger we are. let's be honest, isis does not have an army, navy, where is their artillery and air force? they had very little military force and they can do very little damage to the u.s. one of the most remarkable things was what was not said. 45,000 people in this country

are dying every year because they can't get health care. between a third and a quarter of our children are in poverty depending on what part of the country you are looking at. we have de-industrialization. i went to grad school in syracuse, new york. homes look like they are bombed out, isis did not do that, nafta and the industrialization -- d e-industrialization did that. we have more than enough capability to handle them. they're talking about building a bigger military. we had a great piece on "the intercept" where we found audio from executives where they are saying the war is great for the bottom line. they expect rising profits and they did well in the budget. why do we need the most powerful military in the world focusing on a few thousand people with almost no military technology who are mostly a threat to people in iraq and syria. they're barely a threat to the u.s. we should be handling this with special operations and intelligence and primarily police.

antagonizing be muslims and doing things that would kill tremendous numbers of people because that is the number one reason muslims get drawn to groups like isis, they see their brothers and sisters being killed in these wars by allied regimes of the u.s. we are not when he hearts and minds by talking about decapitating children and blowing people's arms and legs off. amy: bob herbert, this question of hugh hewitt, the right-wing radio host, saying would you be willing to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent children? interestingly, he said because that is what war is. bob: it should have been an to cnn to have a moderator asking that his start with. he should have been disqualified, just as most of the candidates should be disqualified from running for president. you make a good point. people do not understand what war is. war is a horrifying set of

circumstances. most americans do not know what war is. they think it is like television or video game something. it's ra-ra, you root for the home team and go in and kick the ir butts and come home and wave the flag and declare victory. it is not like that. i cover all these american gis who came back from iraq and afghanistan paralyzed and without limbs and horribly problems,h mental posttraumatic stress. and then what happened to their families. that does not even begin to touch what happened to the folks in the countries, the folks who lived in iraq and afghanistan. do it just want to go and all over again. it is preposterous, it is a shame. juan: i wanted to go to another subject.

and marco rubio clashed over the bulk collection of metadata. cruz, you voted for a bill that president obama signed into law that made it harder for the government to ask american'' phone records. in light of the san bernardino attacks, was your vote a mistake? >> the premise of your question is not accurate. have joined with conservatives in the senate and the house to reform how we target by guys. -- bad bguys. act ended them bulk collection of phone metadata of millions of law-abiding citizens. number two, in the second half of it, it strengthened the tools of national security and law enforcement to go after terrorists. give us greater tools. we are seeing those tools work right now in san bernardino. >> senator -- >> let me be careful and answering this. i do not think national

television in front of 15 million people is a place to discuss classified information. there's nothing we are allowed to do under the bill that we could not do before. this bill did take away a valuable tool that allows us, the national security agency, and other intelligence agencies to quickly and rapidly accessed phone records and match them with other phone records to see who terrorists had been calling. i promise you, the next time there's an attack on this country, the first thing people are going to want to know is why didn't we know about it and why did we -- why didn't we stop it? the answer better not be because we did not have access to records or information that would allow us to identify these killers. [applause] >> senator paul, this has been a big issue for you. you hear many of your colleagues calling for increased surveillance by law enforcement. you call that hogwash. why is that hogwash? >> marco gets it completely wrong.

we are not any safer through book collection of records. we are less safe. we get distracted by all the information and we are not spending enough time getting specific information, specific information on terrorists. senatorst speaker was rand paul. donald trump also defended his call for closing parts of the internet to fight isis. >> you talk freedom of speech, freedom of anything you want. i do not want them using our internet to take our young, impressionable youth and watching the media talking about how they are masterminds. we should not be using the word mastermind. these are terrible people, not masterminds. we have to change it from every standpoint. we should be using our most figure outinds to that isis cannot use the internet. we should penetrate the internet and find out where isis is and

everything about isis and we can do that if we use our good people. [applause] >> many follow-up, mr. trump. are you open to closing parts of the internet? open to closing areas where we are at war with somebody. let peoplet want to that want to kill us and kill our nation use our internet. yes i am. jilani of the intercept has written a lot about surveillance and controlling "our internet." zaid: when trump says he wants to close parts of the internet when people are fighting with us, is he taking iraq and syria off the internet? assad did that in syria, he knocked off parts of syria from the internet.

they would use the usb and put it on donkeys and send it to the next town. the idea of knocking people of the internet, our intelligence agencies like to have access to social media accounts and to people putting out broadcasts so they can track people who may be doing us harm. i don't think walling off the internet to certain parts of the world is going to solve much. it goes back to the debate about surveillance. there is no evidence that the bulk collection of data would have stopped the san bernardino attacks. it is speculative. in cases where we have a paper trail like dylann roof, he laid out a manifesto about what he was doing and we had plenty of information about the weapons he had and such things and yet we did not use that information to intercept him in any way. there is a danger and costing too much information and that is what paul was getting to. amy:in the case of san bernardino, isn't it the fact

that the woman who was involved with the attack was actually openly on social media talking about violent jihad? this did not take going deeply into some private part or encrypted part of communication. is a huge attack on encryption following the terrorist attacks and we do not have any evidence they were using encryption. they were using unencrypted data. a lot of times is not necessarily about getting tougher and more intrusive, taking away more liberties. we have the police and the tools and we need to go to them and say what were you doing. maybe collecting too much information to where you cannot sift. amy: arun kundnani, weigh in? arun: two moments where someone said something correct. rand paul saying the problem we have with surveillance is we are collecting so much information we cannot analyze it properly. most actual incidents of terrorism, that has been the issue.

the person was known and information was in the system but it could not be assessed. i think the idea that we just need to set up more and more data is completely misconceived. the other aspect here, if you tafsheenhe post malik made in the san bernardino case, they were not in english. you are talking about recruiting translators. amy: she wrote in arabic. arun: we need an army of translators if we are looking at every social media profile. who is going to vet the translators? we get sucked into craziness. juan: you have mentioned, you have written about the level, the ratio of surveillance here in the u.s. it is comparable to east germany before the fall of communism. arun: that is right.

if you look at the number of agents in different intelligence agencies within the u.s. looking at the domestic situation, we have such a huge number working in this contest agencies. if you look at the ratio to the number of muslims in the u.s. subject to that surveillance, the ratio looks roughly the same as what the east german population was facing under the stasi. if every muslim in the u.s., i remember right it is about 70 or 80 intelligence agents spying on them. same ratio the stasi had. the lesson here is that level of surveillance does not tell you what you think it tells you. stasi did not anticipate their own downfall. amy: we are talking about the republican presidential debate held in las vegas. our guests are zaid jilani , arun kundnani, and bob herbert.

stay with us. [music break]

amy: "climbing the mountain" here on democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. donald trump and jeb bush clashed after a facebook viewer asked about the plan to kill family members of isis. >> is it violates the principle of distinction between civilians and combatants in international law. how does killing civilians set us apart from isis? >> mr. trump? >> we have to be much tougher and stronger than we have been. we have people who know what is going on, look at the attack in california. numerous people including the mother who knew what was going on.

they saw pipe bombs and ammunition all over the place. the world trade center ago, people were put into planes that were friends, families, girlfriends, they were sent back to saudi arabia. they knew what was going on. they wanted to watch their boyfriends on television. i would be very firm with families. that will make people think. they may not care much about their lives, they do care about their families lives. >> governor bush? >> another example of the lack of seriousness. this is troubling. we are at war. they've declared war on us and we need a serious strategy to destroy isis. the idea that that is the solution is just crazy. it makes no sense to suggest this. two months ago, donald trump said that isis was not our fight, just two months ago. he said hillary clinton would be

a great negotiator with iran. and he gets his foreign-policy experience from the shows. that is not a serious kind of candidate. we need someone that thinks this through and can lead our country to safety and security. amy: jeb bush and donald trump sparring last night in the republican presidential debate in las vegas. we are joined by stephen zunes of the university of san francisco where he chairs the program on middle eastern studies. your response to what you watched last night? stephen: there was a testosterone display by men who have little knowledge of the middle east and the origins of extremism. president obama referred to as a weakling and they promised to be strong and tough. even the question about domestic terrorism like san bernardino and internal security, even the moderate john kasich started

saying we need to send more troops. the recently concluded paris summit should be about isis and not climate change. there are 20,000 isis fighters and the u.s. already spends like $800 billion on military annually, nearly half the world's total. we cannot see isis because that is not enough money. the irony is that president obama, when he was a state senator in illinois at an antiwar rally in october 2002 said that iraq was not a threat. he warned of an invasion on -- he warned an invasion on the middle east would bring out the worst rather than the best of the arab world and be a recruitment arm for extremists. the very people who supported that war are now saying it is his fault. -- this is what is it is a reckless

militarism that got us into this mess. what we are hearing is we need more of the same. i would like to ask you about this. repeatedly several candidates kept saying that the united states was week, that the world no longer expects the united states and that has to change. president obama has bombed seven muslim countries since coming to office. withdrew from iraq, he tried to extend the u.s. troop presence but president bush signed an agreement that required the u.s. to pull out. the iraqi government would have had every legal right to attack us. quite extraordinary how they are twisting history. one of the ironies is that the

argument to this nonsense, there's a lot of arguments we could make, we should never have invaded iraq in the first place because isis is a direct outgrowth of that invasion. almost the entire political and military leadership of isis is iraqi. a recent survey by the oxford that wasy professor published recently in "the nation" talked about in interviewing isis recruiters, they are almost all motivated not by islam but out of bitterness at the u.s. occupation and its aftermath. the best response by the democrats can have is we should have never invaded iraq in the first place. if hillary clinton is the nominee, she cannot say that because she was one of the democrats that did support bush on this. not justes me about the republican base but the fact that hillary clinton is the front runner is that no one is looking at the root cause of this monster we created, isis.

and all we are hearing is that hyper militarism that is the thatroot of the terror people of iraq and syria are facing. as we've seen from western nations including the u.s. as well. amy: back to donald trump at the venetian casino. >> we need toughness, we need strength. we are not respected as a nation anymore. we do not have that level of respect that we need. if we don't get it back fast, we are going to go weaker and weaker and disintegrate. we cannot allow that to happen. we need strength, that -- when jeb comes out. i was witness to it, they come across. he's saying the same thing right

now with radical islam. we cannot have that in our country. it will not work. we need strength. >> governor bush? >> you are not going to be able to insult your way to the presidency. that is not going to happen. [applause] i do have the strength. leadership is not about attacking people and disparaging people. leadership is about creating a serious strategy to deal with the threat of our time. i laid out that strategy before the attacks in paris and before the attacks in san bernardino. it is the way forward. increase military spending, deal with a no-fly zone in syria, focus on building a military that is second to none so we can destroy islamic terror. >> with jeb's attitude we will never be great again. amy: donald trump saying we will never be great again as he spars with jeb bush. stephen zunes? stephen: this is the part that

is particularly mind-boggling. it is basically about empire. the idea that the united states can, with just enough firepower, if we kill enough civilians and sand and enough troops that somehow we can shape the world the way we want to. it is rather simplistic but particularly now when you have this network of nonstate actors you'd even when it comes to nonviolent resistance, we had the ridiculous line, i cannot remember which candidate, i think it was cruz who said that obama toppled mubarak. somehow we could have prevented the millions of egyptians from taking to the streets in their demand for democracy. the united states is not omnipotent. when we try to have this hubris and think we can shape the

world, that is when we get blowback. i have been studying the middle eastf -- i have been styling the middle east for 45 years now and the more the u.s. has militarized the regent, the less secure we become. americans used to be able to travel through the region without fear and it is really becoming -- amy: one issue not addressed in tuesday's debate was climate change. a higher governor john kasich held the distinction of being the only candidate to even say the word climate. >> first and foremost we need to go and destroy isis and we need to do this with our arab friends and friends in europe aired when i see they have a climate conference in paris, they should have been talking about destroying isis because they are involved in virtually every country across the world. amy: it was astounding. democracy now! just returned from paris where we covered the largestmate summit, the

gathering of world leaders in the history of the world. zaid jilani? zaid: we have so much hysteria about syrian refugees. i was part of a refugee welcoming ceremony. 4 million refugees. if we do not solve climate change, we are talking 40 million or 100 million refugees. amy: the person who gained the most twitter followers last night during this republican presidential debate was bernie sanders. right to play a clip now of a well-known hip-hop artist understanding bernie sanders and atlanta. >> i have to tell you that in my heart of hearts, and my heart of hearts i truly believe that senator bernie sanders is the right man to lead this country. [applause] and i believe it because he,

unlike any other candidate, said i would like to restore the voting rights act. he, unlike any other candidate, said i wish to end the illegal war on drugs that disproportionately targets minorities and poor. unlike any other candidate in my life, he said that education should be free for every citizen of this country. amy: that is hip-hop artist killer might introducing bernie sanders. they spent a lot of time in m&f and killer mike just posted the interview -- in atlant a and killer mike just posted the interview. it is starting a trend with hip-hop artists endorsing bernie sanders. a poll has devoted something like 81 minutes to donald trump compared to 20 seconds or less

than a minute to bernie sanders. bob: after all these years i've been in the media, i get my perspective from hip-hop artists and i cannot get it from the mainstream media. the hip-hop artists are making far more sense. to beat up onding the press or the media, people use it as a whipping boy. coverage of this presidential campaign has been really horrible. so last night the debate focused almost entirely on isis. all the focus has been on donald trump. trump is leading because he's the most famous person in this celebrity obsessed country. amy: i want to thank you for being with us. ,aid jiliani, arun kundnani

stephen zunes and bob herbert. for our broadcast. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. our website is democracynow.org. thanks for joining us. [captioning made possible by demo